DISQUS

tma_steve · 3 months ago

So are all DSLRs considered pro equipment in that part of CA? If that happened here in NJ I'd tell them where they could pucker up and kiss!

Next time just jell them you have a little Kodak Instamatic.

typicalmacuser · 3 months ago

Next time I'll just shut up :)

Todd Walker · 3 months ago

Hmmm...OK Victor I don't want to go back on what I said on your Posterous post but you do provide a tidbit of info here that you didn't in your audio post -- you told them that you might be selling your pictures. So now my question becomes, did they ask you to buy a permit simply because you were using a DSLR or because you said that you might be using the pictures for profit? My outrage in relation to your audio post was because it seemed that they were treating you the way they were because of your equipment. Now it seems that it might be because you (being honest,) told them that the resulting pics might be sold which would put you in the category of "professional." What I saw this morning as a black and white issue has now become decidedly grey for me...

Todd Walker

typicalmacuser · 3 months ago

That's why I wanted to post this post so that the whole story from my perspective was out. My camera was in the trunk the whole time. They did say if I was using a point and shoot it would not be an issue, but I did say that I was not a pro, but would not mind selling pictures. I think this was my big mistake and the issue. Intent to sell does not a pro make. So I take my part of the blame and that's why I wanted to blog about it while it was fresh. Twitter 140 characters does not make a good platform to do this.

Pete Hobley · 3 months ago

Hi Victor

I feel your pain, but you were the victim of a tick-box exercise (albeit in their heads). You said the 'wrong' thing and that was that as far as they were concerned.

I also think this is a different issue to the 'photography is not a crime' debate. You were just into the 'pro' category, but take it further - think about pros with lots of equipment, then think further to film crews making programs or films. They are all photographing one way or another. Hang on though - they are also WORKING. Suddenly they aren't a tourist out for a stroll - they are working in a public park. It then naturally follows they need liability insurance to protect innocent passers by who may trip over a lighting cable etc. Extreme I know, and not applicable to you. However, you fell in to that category. Just.

If it makes you feel better, there are similar rules in the Royal Parks in London, and I'm sure many other parts of the world - I think it's a mixture of getting some of the action from the pros while also making sure they get protection.

Anyway, any chance of SoCal meet up for shutterbugs? We could all go out and get harassed/arrested/permit-ed together. Could be fun!

typicalmacuser · 3 months ago

I agree I have part of the blame here for sure. Again why I wanted to post this and just express my feelings.

Ben Drucker Photo · 3 months ago

I'm not saying any of this was your fault Victor. Their permit situation was ridiculous. But you did break the rule of all professional photographers and serious amateurs, which is just break the rules, and then leave if you're asked to. I'm not saying that you should break the law. Definitely don't do that. But if they ask, you say you're an amateur, and no, you are not carrying professional equipment. You have never sold an image, and don't ever plan to.

If a park ranger comes up to you and you have your tripod down and says that you have to put it away, do it. And then when you're far enough out of his sight, start using it again.

In the future, just go shoot. Don't call attention to the fact that you have a lot of gear. Don't use one of their buzzwords. The second you say you're a professional, they can't get over that fact. You'll never convince them to let you shoot once you say that.

Todd Walker · 3 months ago

"If a park ranger comes up to you and you have your tripod down and says that you have to put it away, do it. And then when you're far enough out of his sight, start using it again."

Ben,

This is not the kind of actions or attitude that we as photographers want to portray if we want to effect any kind of change in these types of regulations. Just my $.02 of course...

Todd

Ben Drucker Photo · 3 months ago

If you'd like to wait and hope for people to start being accommodating to photographers, I respect that. I also respect that some people are far more honest than I am.

None of these parks have any desire to change their rules, and nor do I have the desire to give up a great shot in an effort to conform to their rules.

With regard to the tripod, don't be disrespectful to the ranger. Don't put it back in front of his face, or in a spot he'll likely return. But like I said, if you start using it and then he comes back, just say that you weren't totally clear on the rule he'd told you and that you're really sorry.

I'd rather say I'm sorry for doing something than be to afraid to do and miss the shot as a result.

typicalmacuser · 3 months ago

This is a really good discussion. My problem is that believe it or not I tend not to ever lie cause I suck at it and it's just wrong. However I agree that in this case I also would not be lying cause I am no a pro, as I've never sold a photo.

Pete Hobley · 3 months ago

It's not so much lying; more like "being economical with the truth".

Mr Park Ranger: "Do you intend selling your photos?"
Victor: "No, I do not intend selling my photos" [True]
... time passes ...
Magazine editor: "Wow, we'll pay your $1500 bucks for one of your Flickr shots!"
Victor: "Great! I never expected that! Let's have a party."
Victor reflecting later: "Well, sorry Mr Park Ranger. As they say: s*** happens."

typicalmacuser · 3 months ago

Well I like the way you think :)

create4d · 2 months ago

Hi

What you just have written about i have encounter so many times. I live in Sweden were we have a law that allows you to go everywhere in nature. But when I had a photo shoot where i needed some nice looking trees and gras in front where i was going to have a model holding a dog I went to the biggest park around and found a great place and when I later called them they wanted a amount around 500dollars but to get the permit we were not allowed to go on the grass. And I said What we need to be on the grass thats the whole point. No you will destroy it. Then I put in the comment that this park have tons of people waking there dogs and having picnics and so on that they destroy the grass more then ever we could do. NO was the answer.
Ok at this pint i was really angry and went out and found a new location to shoot at. Became at a cemetery no problems getting the permits. A few days later I got a faktura from the other park for the photo shoot. I called up this lady again and asked here what she was doing. She claimed that we did the photo shoot there and if the images was used they would reminisced the set and then they would send us a lawsuit. The funny thing is that we did not even get the permit at first.

So thats my little story. So I know how frustrated you must have been. I could just have gone there and do the shoot but just I tried to do it properly i got burned.

Andrew Darlow · 2 months ago

Sorry to hear that you experienced these headaches Victor. I wonder if the park ranger (and those who wrote those rules) knows that people like Ansel Adams helped to preserve and make possible so many National Parks! There's an outstanding book out now about the National Parks co-authored by Ken Burns that describes the importance of photography in this regard.

I've been escorted out of the Santa Monica Pier in CA for taking pictures on the pier with a camera that also looked "professional" (I truly had no idea that they had any restrictions-I don't think there were any signs). Of course I have not marketed any as stock photos, but I've seen the Pier in other stock photos online.

Commercial use is so tricky to determine when photos or video are posted online. I can understand why a park would not want a crew of 5 or 100 people making movies without prior permission, but an independent tax paying American? I've seen many people with 4x5 view cameras at Grand Canyon National Park, and I doubt they paid a permit fee, so it must be dependent on the location.

One way to get rules like that changed or amended to be more fair is to start from the ground up with a petition and then contact your local representatives and write articles in the local paper. There many be a procedure that others can follow as well. Nothing's easy!

John Pozadzides · 2 months ago

I think there may be one other thing to consider here. While you have a nice camera, I think it would be perfectly fair to say it is not a "professional" camera. Why? Because I'm certain that far more hobbyists own that model than professionals. And professionals even own small pocket cameras, but that doesn't make them professional gear.

Now if you were bringing in a $50k medium format camera that ONLY pros own and use, then I could understand it, and would admit to bringing in pro gear.

Also, let's look at the intent of your visit. You said you were out to take photos for your own learning, practice, and enjoyment. You didn't show up "on the job". So, while you were trying to be honest, I think you screwed yourself. In a case like this where the liklihood of selling one of your photos is distant, and your gear is common, you clearly were not there as a "pro".

If I were you, I'd go back and get the photos that attracted you to the place originally! Oh, and if it makes you feel better, at least they didn't throw you out and ban you like the Excalibur did to me! :-)

John Pozadzides · 2 months ago

Oops! That link should have been:
http://onemansblog.com/2009/09/30/the-photos-th...

Mike · 3 weeks ago

Just found your blog and had to post. (Good blog so far and have the podcasts cued on my player.)

The problem is one of communication. The legal definition of "commercial use" is not what most people think. "Professional equipment" is exactly what? Selling a print is not commercial use, using the image to endorse camper gear is. Pros use Holgas as well as an SLR.

If your camera has an Auto setting and a pop-up flash then it can't be pro equipment can it? I have never seen (or heard) of a professional shooter using Auto and a pop-up flash for commercial work. If I use the same clubs as Tiger Woods am I a professional golfer?

Bit late to help you out but it is something to keep in mind. It is also easier to apologize than it is to ask permission.